======================= Continuation from file Clarinetists.1 Section 2 of 3 ======================= This interview with Sidney Forrest is one of five interviews from a volume entitled, "The Seasoned Clarinetist". A complete bundle of these interviews with Anthony Gigliotti, Stan Hasty, Stan Drucker and Robert Marcellus is avalable from James Gholson, Prof. at Memphis State and Clarinet Principal of the Memphis Symphony. #293 Music Dept., MSU ,Memphis ,TN. 38152. e-mail: gholsonj@memstvx1.memst.edu tele: 901-678-3793 16 J. G.: What personalities do you consider to be landmarks in clarinet teaching and why? S. F.: Well, of course, my own teacher, Mr. Bellison, was a great landmark becuase he was a great inspiration, and musically a fantastic interpreter in style, and because he was so unique. I think, of course, Bonade was a tremendous clarinetist in this country. I have gained, myself, from reading his books. Naturally, you would admit that it was gorgeous, and like some say, reluctantly. But I give him lots of credit. I played with him and he was an entirely different gentleman from Bellison. A little bit more on the gruff side, I would say. Bellison was a very gentle man. I remember playing with Bonade at CBS several times, and I was playing alongside him and I would be practicing scales, and he would say, "You practice too much." He would tell his students that he didn't practice at all. He was apparently some sort of born genius because he didn't have to practice, but that's hard to believe. But, of course, he had a tremendous influence on students in this country. Polatschek, I think, had a big influence through his books. Bellison, through his books and through his revisions and editing and arranging of solos. His ideas musically were just incredible--nothing sensational--just beautiful stuff. And, of course, as far as teaching is concerned, Keith Stein had a great influence. Stubbins. Unfortunately, Lindemann didn't leave anything that I know of, did he? Not even a revision or arrangement of anything. I know he was--speaking of gruff--he was impossible, I understand, as a teacher. Terrible temper, but a beautiful, beautiful sound, a magnificent sound. You 17 know, we all have to have our own conception, goals, and ideas about what we want to sound like. To me, between him and Lindemann and Bellison, there were two sounds that were just incredible. Nobody has sounds like that nowadays. J. G.: Let me ask you a loaded question. What would you say would be the difference in tone quality between Bonade and Bellison? S. F.: Bonade and Bellison? Bonade was quite light. Bellison had this dark, rich sound. Bonade's was a much lighter, much easier-blowing sound. I think the closest that comes to the Bellison-Lindemann school is still there in Germany with Karl Leister. Very fine player with a beautiful sound. But he's playing the German type reed with a German facing, although his reeds are, he tells me, the Vandoren. It's the German cut Vandoren. But he uses it on the German facing; and he uses the magnificent old Oehler system clarinet. I would say that for quite a while Reginal Kell had quite an influence on students; everybody started using wide vibratos. He was quite an elegant musician, except that his style of playing the clarinet was very peculiar. The tone, thank God, never took hold in this country. He himself told me that he adapted that style to match Goosens on the oboe with that vibrato. Reginal Kell--his recordings are still popular, especially the Brahms Quintet. That above all, and also the Mozart Concerto. I used to have kids coming into the studio imitating this wide vibrato. But he was an influence, I would say. Of course, Langenus was an influence on the older generation. I think people went to Europe to study with Hamelin. Like Ralph Maclane. Maclane 18 was a fine influence. Currently Gigliotti has been at Curtis many, many years, and has produced many fine students. J. G.: Do you use any of Tabeteaux's ideas in your teaching of phraseology? S. F.: One I especially like is the numbers. Not only crescendo on a particular note, but whole phrases when you make sequential climbing (sings using numbers for each sequence). l, 2, 3, 4, I think it always goes over with students, works very well. I always admired his playing, and I think that Delancie was a very logical successor to his playing on that subject; I think one must not only listen to clarinet playing and clarinet, but spread out to other people's ideas, other than clarinetists. There's Kincaid and his rhythmical ideas about moving ahead toward the next beat. That was his big thing. And listening to performances of other players and other instrumentalists, singers especially. I tell my students to listen to singers because I treat the clarinet as a singing instrument, not so much solely fingers and technique. If you can't necessarily make a portamento (sings downward wide slur), then at least you can think that you make a large interval going down or going up, as singers do. I listen to lots of opera now and encourage my students to listen to opera and to vocal recitals. There are so many good vocalists. Coming again to the use today of recordings. Tabetaux and others. One must spread out to other instruments. I love and recommend to all my students to listen to the Bach unaccompanied pieces. There is one especially that I adore, the Grumiuaux recordings--do you know those? It all goes back to conception and ideas. 19 J. G.: What recordings do you feel are required listening in the development of the young clarinetist? S. F.: Well, let's see...how many recordings did I make? J. G.: Can you still get your recordings and where? S. F.: Yes. If you can't get them, they can be ordered. But some of them are out of print. They sold out millions of them and couldn't make anymore! Well, what do you mean--specific recordings or specific works? Well, everything has been recorded nowadays, and I think one should listen to all these things. And then of course the orchestra things. It's very important to listen to orchestra recordings. The Brahms Quintet, the Mozart Quintet, the Mozart Trio, everything else. The Premiere_Rhapsody of Debussy, I think is the best recording still, the very first one. Gaston Hamelin--everyone should listen to that. The Mozart Quintet by Bellison--such bad recording in terms of high fidelity, but beautiful interpretation. Modesty prohibits me from talking about my own recordings, so I won't mention them! Another outstanding performance is the Deplus recording of the Quartet_for_ the_End_of_Time--a stunning performance! In the old days the Kell recording of the Brahms was a gorgeous recording, except for that vibrato. But he was very fine. It's the funniest thing, people who are not clarinetists admire and enjoy his playing but we clarinetists in this country didn't like it. In England they do, but it's peculiar. We may be lucky, but there is very little English-style playing in this country. They must abhor our playing or something, think it stinks, our playing in this country, because they use a 20 terribly wide vibrato--what they call the "bel canto" style of clarinet playing. I have some recordings of Draper and Thurston and they were very fine players. That was prior to the Kell style of all this wild vibrato. Brymer uses a Buffet. Brymer is a very, very fine clarinet player, and they did play very, very musically, no doubt about it. And the Italian style too hasn't made much difference in this country. It's just generally the French and German. And Bellison was mainly the German style. There again, we are all individuals. I always like to tell the story about Hamelin, as he told me. I asked him about the French school of clarinet playing and he almost got angry and said, "Listen, young man, here are fifty million Frenchmen in France, and there are fifty million ways to play the clarinet in France." So there are 250 million Americans and 250 million ways to play clarinet in America. That is quite a broad statement. Brings out a very important aspect of music generally. O.K! J. G.: Do you play duets with your students? S. F.: I play duets with advanced students, but I don't think it is a very good way of teaching. I have them play duets with each other, for sightreading. But as you know--did I ever play duets with you? Never? J. G.: You would demonstrate a lot for me! S. F.: I have seen people give the entire lesson--duets? Not a word, just play duets for half an hour or an hour and that is the lesson. But I do have advanced students play with each other, sometimes at the 21 end of one lesson and at the beginning of the next lesson, we'll say. Duets! Oh, I encourage it. I think it is very good especially for sight reading. J. G.: How do you teach staccato? S. F.: I thought we mentioned that already. I have my own grade studies as far as staccato is concerned. But there are good books, the Stark Studies, and the Baerman IV, of which I hope my new revision will come out with the staccato studies in there. There are six beautiful staccato studies which were extracted. I hope to put them back in a new edition. Also, some of these Rose Studies where there is a complete page of slurring...you know among the Etudes --a complete page of slurring--and I take those and convert them into staccato studies and they work out very well. And conversely too. Take a staccato study and convert it into a slurred study. One helps the other. J. G.: What kinds of long tones have you found to be most helpful? S. F.: Well, that is a long story. I like to use twelfths. I encourage students to listen to the low register and try to transfer the fullness of sound from the chalemeau into the clarion, which has a tendency to thin out, to encourage fullness there. And crescendi and diminuendo of course. I tell students the reason for long tones is for quality and improving quality, trying to improve the endurance of the player, and also the pitch among other things. So long tones are not be be played just to do one's duty, but there's a reason for long tones. Also, there is the idea of crescendo--dimenuendo on a single 22 tone, there again for endurance and control and pitch. And I like to employ the numbering of Tabeteaux's system, where you hold and sustain ____________________________ INSERT DRAWING HERE ____________________________ the last tone, the longer the better. Also I start with a loud sound and continue diminuendo, diminishing as far as the endurance will take you, and controlled. Also matching tones...very, very slow arpeggios, mixed arpeggios; instead of "do, mi sol, do," "do, sol, mi, do sol, mi do" but slower and as I am sure you remember the Bb, the very lousy Bb throat without any auxiliary fingerings, just the plain raw Bb and using that as a focus note for all the other notes. That, of course, along with slow pieces. Anything else? J. G.: Do you employ rhythms and why? S. F.: Oh, of course, as you remember, I gave you whole sheets of that. Why? For instance, you take a passage--famous Priemere Rhapsody passage. There are so many ways you can play that. What happens is that there are weak fingers and strong fingers, weak notes and strong notes there, and by changing the rhythm instead of the straight four notes (sing ______________________) you are strengthening and emphasizing the first and the third note. When you reverse that (______________), then you really strengthen the weak notes two and four. Then you take another (_______________________) and if you reverse that one, you get the weakest one of them all. The fourth note then becomes the strongest beat, and that eventually evens out 23 the technique. It sounds like a theory, but it works. It is a theory that does work. Yes, by all means, that, along with articulation. And also I'll change a passage of fours into a passage of threes. Sixes, instead of, let's say, you have a passage of "one and two and three and four and five and six and." I'd change that to "one, two three, one two three, one, two, three" (duple to triple meter). Always works, never fails. J. G.: What music and pedadogical volumes do you think should be reprinted because of their value? In your experience, say for instance as in the case of the Baermann, are there other things that should be reprinted because of their value to you as a clarinetist? S. F.: Well, I think we have a vast amount of music available to us nowadays, a tremendous amount. What comes to mind is that Baermann which would like to bring back to its original status, and what I'm doing is to bring it back using modern fingerings. What we have to have there, for the old Albert system, there are so many numbers you can hardly see the music. And just an occasional left or right, that's all that's necessary. I can't think of anything that's out of print, can you? J. G.: What literature for other mediums have you found helpful in your teaching? S. F.: Well, as I said before, the Kincaidiana. I love all the techinique books out of that Oxford series, Clarinet Technique, etc. I cannot recommend the Oxford books too highly. There is one on the oboe, and that is written by Mrs. Barborolli--I forget her maiden 24 name; the clarinet one by Frederik Thurston; the flute is by Chapman; the bassoon book is by Archie Camden with a good sense of humor; and there is one on the French horn by Gunther Schuller. The one on oboe is Evelyn Rothweld--she was a top flight oboist in England. Another fine book is the book by Quantz about flute playing, which discusses quite thoroughly the ornamentation of the baroque and early classical period. There's a book of Theobald Boehm on the flute and flute playing. Another one is called Embouchure. The Embouchure, which discusses all embouchures and what I've gotten from that book is not only the embouchure and the formation of the mouth, but it also talks about breathing, the physical nature of breathing, the diaphragm, the lungs and the rib cage, talks about the Groves dictionary. Not the two thousand dollar one which is the latest edition, but the previous edition. The Oxford companion to music is excellent. Oh yes, I found this book on old music, Quantz, on playing the flute, Johann Joachim Quantz. It's on ornamentation and things--tremendous. So we could go on and on, but those are the important things, I think, in the library. A book like this, Human Anatomy, discusses the whole thorasic cavity and the use of the diaphragm. Another good book, as far as history, is Clarinet Virtuosi, by Pamela Weston. So, there we are--the Kincaidiana, as I said before, is excellent--first class. J. G.: What volumes do you envision as being necessary to the library of the developing clarinetist? S. F.: You mean the printed word. I mention befor Keigh Steins' book called The_Art_of_Clarinet_Playing. And then there is Thurston's book called Clarinet_Technique, published by Oxford and the Stein book is 25 published by Summy Birchard and then there's the book by Jack Brymer called The Clarinet--do you know that book? Part of the Yehudi Menunin series, also the Stubbins book, "The_Art_of_Clarinetistry." It's very good and published by Schirmer, and it's paperback. Another one, oh, the History_of_the_Clarinet by Jeoffrey Randall, it's called The_Clarinet. Also The Woodwinds--bring the tape over-- The Woodwind and Their History by Bates, Baines, and this one, Kincaidiana, refers to flute mainly, and also this one, the Chamber Music of Brahms. Now other books are the compilation of Opperman, The_Repertoire_of_the_Clarinet, along with his book on reedmaking. Now I mentioned the book by Jeoffrey Randall, and that is the Philosophical Library. Also, I have--any good clarinetist should have--dictionaries: a German dictionary, a French dictionary and Italian dictionary. Not to mention, of course, a music dictionary, which I insist that my students have. Another good book, which I think--now this is a rare book--called The_Embouchure. He treats the embouchure as everything except the fingers, so it's the lips, the teeth, the throat--the whole thoracic cavity and the diaphragm-- that's all embouchure. It's called The_Embochure by Maurice M. Porter, published by Boosey and Hawkes. I've never seen it in this country. It was a gift to me from a friend of mine in England, Eugena Fabrey. Did you ever meet her? She's done some publishing. I also like the Boande book, The_Compendium, I get that for all my students. I am a Bellison product but I don't say that there is nothing else in the world--I think that's stupid! I think that anybody who is a Bonade product who may think that there is nothing in the world but Bonade-- I think that is stupid too. And of course you feel that way; you have 26 become very ecumenical and eclectic in your taste. Another excellent book I have found is called The_Artistic_Clarinet by Gabriel Tose. Very, very good, and of course in modern music. The_New_Sounds_for Woodwind by Bartolozzi. There are many, many books on the 20th century clarinet. And many other books... J. G.: How do you teach embouchure? S. F.: You mean the steps? There are three basic steps to forming an embouchure. One is to shape the lips as though one is whistling, or to shape the lips as though one is saying "oo," maintaining that shape--the whistle shape or the "oo" shape. Then one must form the lower lip over the teeth--not much, just enough to cover the teeth-- or half the red part in and half out of the mouth; and then the third step: while still maintaining the "oo" with the lower lip over the teeth, to pull back the corners of the mouth in a sardonic grin--or a sarcastic grin. So that should result in a pointed and flat chin. Those are the basic things...Actually, of course, "embouchure" comes from the French word "bouche" and it means "formation of the mouth," but it goes further than that. One must consider the throat, lungs, the diaphragm--everything, I think, besides the actual finger technique, as far as I am concerned, is embouchure. A general term. J. G.: My next question is please mark the following scales. I want to change that a little bit to ask you about the left hand F#. Do you generally employ the side F# or the double side F#? S. F.: Well, that depends upon the key. 27 J. G.: What about in the chromatic scale? S. F.: Oh. Well, in the chromatic scale, F# on the side--you're talking about F# first space. Generally, not always. Not a one hundred percent rule. For instance, I find it more convenient in the Tchaikovsky Fourth (sings_____________________) that it is better to keep the technique in one hand so I don't use the side, which employs the right hand and the left hand. Also in the Scheherezade, where after (Sings lyrical solo) and the trumpet plays (_________________________) and then that little chromatic passage(________________________) starts as b, g, d, f, I've found that to be much more convenient in the left hand. I play that F# in the left hand. Things like that. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but going straight up and down the chromatic scale, I use the side F#. J. G.: This is kind of an aside, but in general would you agree with the fingerings by Avram Galper in his book? S. F.: Which book are you talking about? His Book_of_Scale_Studies? I think so. Speaking of F#, you see Avram Galper and I were both students of Bellison. He likes to jump. Let's say the F# on the fifth line, he likes that F# chromatic to go with the five key to jump down, but generally I agree with him. J. G.: What is the role of solfege in your teaching? S. F.: The role of solfege. I use a simple system when a person has trouble with rhythm. I have a saying, "If you can't say it, you can't play it." And the reverse, "If you can say it, you should be 28 able to play it." In saying, we use the syllable "pom." Or in some cases, "ta" if we're talking about tonguing. But if we have, let's say, the Beethoven seventh (_____________________), if we can't play it, then we break it down into sixths, "Pom, pom pom," and that's the way it is said when we play it. And then it comes to a hard rhythm, you know a syncopation and complicated rhythms. For instance, in the Bartok Contrasts, there is a l3/8, 8/8, 5/8 section, that is begun with a Pom-pom sound. I am strongly in favor of solfeggio and the solfege method. I think some solfege teachers go wild and crazy. And then they drive our pupils nuts. But it's a very, very fine technique for learning--absolutely! J. G.: In what order do you evaluate fundamentals in problem solving with semi-professionals? In other words, when a person is playing and he comes to you and says, "I've got a problem; I've worked on it, and I've been to several people, and I think that you can help me." Then what do you do with that person--not a young student?" S. F.: Well, that depends upon what the problem seems to be. If there are rhythm problems then we might do the solfeggio style; if there are reed problems, we talk about reeds; and if he is squeaking, then we discuss mouthpieces and the clarinet. J. G.: Would you say that you look at the equipment first? S. F.: It depends upon the problem. If the problem is rhythm, I certainly wouldn't look at the clarinet. If I look at the equipment, it will be the equipment right here above the eyes! You have to give me a specific problem. 29 J. G.: OK. I come to you, and I'm squeaking! S. F.: Well then, we look at equipment first. Check out the reed and the mouthpiece. Maybe your reeds are warped; maybe your mouthpiece is warped. Maybe your clarinet has a key that doesn't close; maybe you have a crack that you don't know about. Or maybe you have a broken cork; that could be the problem. Then we go to the person, and include the embouchure. Maybe the teeth suddenly shifted or something. Or maybe he is playing too much and his lips are tired--cut his lip; sometimes that can happen. So that would be the order of it, I would say. It's so individual, every single problem is different. J. G.: What is the reasoning clarinetist? Do you ask your students to account for everything they do? S. F.: There again, depending upon the student. The very first question I ask is whether he practiced. It is as simple as that! They say "No, I didn't practice, honest. I was studying my music history," or "I was practicing my solfeggio or my minor piano." And they think that they can maybe breeze through on the clarinet. If there is a specific problem, then we work out. We try it with the left hand, we try it with the right hand, and I show them how to practice it. We change rhythms, changing articulations, and see which one works best. And in the long run the pupil must decide for himself, after I give him the suggestion. If I don't give him the suggestion, he doesn't need a teacher. But there are many things that they don't know about because of lack of experience and background. So in cases like that, we eliminate possibilities. ===================== End of Section 2 of 3 Continued in file Clarinetists.3