This interview with Sidney Forrest is one of five interviews from a
volume entitled, "The Seasoned Clarinetist". A complete bundle of
these interviews with Anthony  Gigliotti, Stan Hasty, Stan Drucker and
Robert Marcellus is avalable from James Gholson, Prof. at Memphis
State and Clarinet Principal of the Memphis Symphony. #293 Music
Dept., MSU ,Memphis ,TN.  38152.  e-mail: gholsonj@memstvx1.memst.edu
tele: 901-678-3793

                                                                   1

J. G.:  Do you encourage students to keep journals?


S. F.:  What do you mean by journals?

J. G.:  Notebooks, that sort of thing.  For instance, when I studied

with you, we always kept a notebook.

S. F.:  Oh, definitely, I do that all the time, almost exclusively,

until post graduate work.  Then particular studies, specific concertos--

you can do a whole lesson on a concerto.  Or specific orchestra works.

And then maybe the only reason or use I have for a notebook is to, say,

well prepare  this or that, all the way through the masters.  And if a

pupil comes to me and has had his masters elsewhere, at least I'd show

him how to do this, so that he and I know what the lesson is for next

week.  We don't have to guess then.  And certainly through high school

and college.  Absolutely then.  I'm sure you have referred yourself to

your own.  You had a notebook then.  Now you have what?  two or three

or four of them.


J.G.:  Oh I have a lot--at least four!


J.G.:  And you write exercises in these,--do you not?


S. F.:  Absolutely!  That's why I use music paper!  I remember, I had

one student who said his father objected to my using music paper; he

said it is too expensive.  So I had to explain to him why I use music

paper, because I wanted the music paper right there.  Then I just

insisted after that.  But he was a good student.  Sometimes you get

some outrageous statements from students.  I'm sure you know that.

J. G.:  I won't give you one now!





                                                                     2

J. G.:  Do you have a teaching syllabus and could you share it with

us?


S. F.:  Now explain what you mean by syllabus.  You mean grades?


J. G.:  By syllabus I mean do you have a certain set of books that you

feel are absolutely necessary?


S. F.:  Generally, but I don't treat each student the same.  Each

student is an individual.  And it depends on what I feel he needs in

the way of technique or style.  I would say I have a basic or

fundamental group of books from which I expand.  Is that what you

want?  Right from the very beginning?


J. G.:  Yes!


S. F.:  Of course I don't teach any beginning students now, but I do

supervise.  My assistants teach them.  And I still like the old

Rubank.  Rubank Elementary, but you don't turn page after page,

because it is set up very peculiarly.  The student will learn all flat

scales up to three flats and then go into sharp scales, or keys, back

and forth through the book.  There again, it depends on the student,

whether he needs rhythm exercises at the time, or technique or tone

exercises.  Each student has to have it tailored to himself, so to

speak.  And you tailor the method book.  And then of course you work

along with the notebook.  The two of them are very important.  It's

hard to say exactly, but Rubank Elementary is very good.  There are

many good elementary books on the market now.  I must say in the way

of maybe a little bit of laziness on my part to do exploring of




                                                                     3

different books.  There's a good book by Waln, formerly of the

Oberlin Conservatory; also there is a book by Ben Sciller that's very

good, Benjamin Sciller who used to be a friend of mine.  However, I

must say something on the negative side now.  I never use Klose Book

I.  For the beginner, it just moves too fast.  And I think it's

tailored to the European student who has already had a big background

in solfege.  Which, unfortunately in this country, we do not have.

It's amazing to see how fast a student is supposed to go according to

Klose Book I.  But if the student has had solfege and understands note

values and the names of the notes, I mean very elementary fundamentals,

then the teacher doesn't have to explain that the whole note gets four

beats and the half note gets two beats, and a quarter note and so on.

He doesn't have to have the student identify the notes.  He already

knows that, which is the correct way, I think.  Then you can use a

book like Klose Book I.  To get away from that now, for other

beginning books.  I use as a supplement to that the Vannhauser

solfege.  I wonder if you had that?  The Vannhauser is a book that

specializes in rhythm.  And it's a book that is actually used in

solfege.  It's called "Solfege des Solfege." Vannheuser, it's like

Tannheuser but it has a V.  And it's very easily available and all

publishers have it.  And I use the "pom-pom" system--I think I used

that with you, didn't I?  Where the student will pronounce "pom" for

every note value.  Say you have a quarter note and two eighths, that

would be "pom...pom, pom" or a dotted eighth and two sixteenths, "pom,

pom, pom, pom pom"--before he plays it.  He doesn't have to do with

the pitch as he would in a true solfege class, but the rhythms.  So

that "if they can't say it, they can't play it."  From there on, let's




                                                                     4

say Rubank Elementary or something like that, then the Rubank

intermediate book isn't bad, depending on the student.  Or I use the

supplementary book of Rubank, the Endressen.  And along with, again it

depends on the student, Polatschek 24 Studies for Beginners--which is

a terrible misnomer.  It is not a book for beginners at all.  I think

they discouraged a lot of people.  They said, "I'm a beginner and I'm

supposed to play that."  It's not for beginners, it's another kind of

supplementary book.  Did you have those?  I don't remember.  He

specializes in one figure (sings amsterdam rhythm) and gives you an

entire study in that.  And he has rather interesting notes at the very

beginning of each of the twenty-four of them.  Then as soon as

possible, I go to the Baerman, the second division of the Baerman.

Musically, of course, I don't think that there's anything that beats

that.  In phrasing it is marvelous.  And they are very enjoyable too.

And then soon we are coming into the Pares Daily Studies, Scales

Studies.  I like particularly, there again, the Rubank publication of

this book.  And I don't know a single soul at the Rubank company--in

fact, I don't think I've ever gotten a complimentary copy of their

books!  But in Pares the scales are very good.  You go into four

sharps and four flats, unfortunately.  They are not fingered, which I

wish they would do.  There again I guess you would get into lots of

people who are different.  But they are very well set up.  It's

something like the Stephenade Book of scales.  Something on that

order.  They are awfully good.  In the back there are a couple of

drills, finger drills for the little fingers of the right hand or the

left hand.  But they're set up very very well.  Then for scales we go

to the Lazarus Book II.  That's where you came in, I believe.  And




                                                                     5

that is the Carl Fischer edition, which contains the Albert scales in

all keys and also has the harmonic minors.  I am appalled and amazed

at how many "advanced pupils" come to me and have never heard of a

harmonic minor scale.  The Lazarus does have it in the back of the

book.  The harmonic minor and the melodic minor.  And the Albert

scales are just first class.  They are not fingered.  I think it's up

to the teacher to finger them.  And that's very important.  Also in

that book are the famous Kroepsch studies, entertaining a style.  The

Bellison style would be playing all through loudly and then softly,

then slowly and as printed.  The finger technique is a very firm, hard

finger technique which is used strictly as calesthentics.  Then also

included in that book of Lazarus are his own, ten etudes by Lazarus

himself, which are very, very good.  Sort of advanced intermediate

kind of things.  There are some scales set up by Bellison in triplet

form.  Should we go on with methods?


J. G.:  How about a digression?

You mentioned hard finger calesthentic.  What are you listening

for when you do that kind of exercise?


S. F.:  Well, I don't know if it is listening so much as the physical

motion to strengthen the musculature and the coordination of the

fingers.  But I certainly wouldn't play a piece that way necessarily,

because then you get too much popping of the note down.  We don't

want that.  A striking, a disciplining, that's what that is.  But then

you have to use your fingers in different ways as required.  I mean

if you take the Rose studies, which I didn't particularly mention, but

I do use the Rose (and my favorite, which a lot of people use, is




                                                                     6

the Rose Forty Etudes.)  In the first volume, the very first etude, in

C major, is done in an entirely different way.  I think in the book

the quarter note equals seventy-two or something like that and use

that in eighth note is the unit to about forty eight to the beat.

Here the fingers are done in slow motion.  I always use as an analogy:

"when you are watching TV baseball game or football and you get your

playbacks in slow motion, that's the way you should use your fingers."

There is no popping now of the tones; they sort of run together

without any specific pops.  In legato playing, for instance in the

Mozart Concerto, the adagio movement, you play without pops.  I mean

there is more than one way.  It depends on the circumstances.


J. G.:  You have mentioned several books that are not on the list

which I have presented to you.  Would you share those with us?


S. F.:  Well, I don't see the Thurston books, for one thing.  He calls

those Passage Studies.  You had those Frederick Thurston, in three

volumes.  Unfortunately, they are prohibitive in cost nowadays.  When

you studied they were a dollar and a quarter a copy.  I think right

now they are twelve dollars and sixty cents a copy.  I'm pretty sure

that's correct.  Incredible!  But they are marvelous, very, very

musical.  And they give a certain style to the student as well as

bringing out technical problems.  Frederick Thurston, published by

Boosey and Hawkes.  I don't see here the Polatschek Twenty Four

Studies for Beginners.  That's what I had referred to before, Oh, the

Uhl.  Forty-eight Etudes!  They are very explicit studies for very

advanced students.  Really good--a tremendous challenge.  The

unobvious thing happens.  You don't know what's going to come--full of




                                                                     7

surprises as well as being very well done.  These things are just

running through my mind at sixty miles an hour!  Jeanjean, Twenty Five

Etudes--you had those.  They should be the first ones.  Again the

price is prohibitive.  That book costs about seventeen dollars.

Twenty five Etudes...Technique and Melodique...just beautiful studies.

There was already something else which came to my mind...oh yes, the

Langenus part three.  It comes in three volumes but part three is

especially very good.  Published by Carl Fischer.  Oh, the Jeanjean

sixty etudes also, which comes in three separate volumes.  They come

in every key.  They are published by Leduc.  They are three very large

books and very extended, about twenty in each.  In all keys, and of

course Jeanjean was such a beautiful writer for the clarinet.

Delecluse, Fourteen Grande Etudes--marvelous!  You have Polatschek,

which is similar.  Something just went through my mind.  Of couse, the

Chopin-Sarlit.  That is as much for style as it is for technique.

Paganini is excellent.  Another thing I'll say is Bach etudes, and

there are three ways you can approach that.  There's the Rubank

edition called Classical Studies by Voxman.  Bach and Handel in that.

The only thing I don't like about it is that they try to put so much

in it that the music is bunched up.  A beautiful edition of this is

the Delecluse.  The Bach taken from the cello and violin unaccompanied

suites.  And then there is the Italian edition of Ricordi, and I

believe it's Gambaro who did that.  Those are very good too.  It's the

funniest thing, one of them gives it to the clarinet in the original

printer version without changing the key, so the clarinet is really

sounding a tone lower, and the other one gives it in the original key

so that everything is a tone up from the original printed part. (Sings




                                                                     8

violin unaccompanied to demonstrate key difference.)  Very often, I

will give the student the same thing (in both versions).  I may xerox

one if he already has one and needs to prepare the other.  And also, I

think I did with you, have him transpose especially.  I think it's the

Italian that gives the original notation.   So I have the student do

transposing.  And if it's a good student, like you, I would have him

do the original, transpose up a step to C clarinet and transpose down

a step.  And the same lesson, not one week here and so forth.  There

is nothing which trains concentration more than transposition.  That

is one thing that Bellison used to say, and it helps you in sight

reading to maintain concentration...improves so much.  You can't

possibly think of anything else while you're transposing.  I gave you

a lot of that.  I must say that I myself never did have assignments in

transposition; that's my own innovation, to have the students do it as

a regular assignment.  That brings me back to another book, Gabucci l6

Divertimenti.  It's called Etudes for in the Italian Prima Vista,

first sight.  I use those for a good intermediate student and also for

advanced students to keep them transposing.  They have to prepare

those transposed and the accidentals there are chilling, there again

tricky.  The melody isn't always the obvious.  So that you can't just

transpose and say, "well this goes up a major third," or, to say, the

octave.  No, because it's always the unobvious thing, so you have to

really read and concentrate.  And he has interesting rhythms.  This

book is beautifully illustrated.  I never have to mark a thing.  Every

single breath mark, every crescendo and diminuendo is in this book.  G

Divertimenti...you did not have that?  Well, as I told you before, I

feel my method of teaching is constantly evolving.  I don't stick to




                                                                     9

one thing.  I drop things and add things all through the years.  I'm

sure you do the same thing.  You have to.  You become very stale, you

lose your interest.  It becomes a bore.


S. F.:  What mouthpiece did I use with you?


J. G.:  B45--no, B*.


S. F.:  I remember that.  I was playing a B* then myself.  I'm not

going to stick with it all my life because I found the B45 much

better.  Now I use the 5 RV lyre, like it very much.

Do you want me to discuss orchestra studies?  I'm sure you know about

the Strauss Studies.  The three Strauss books and also the Eb and bass

clarinet books.  There is a very good bass clarinet book out now--do

you know that orchestra book?  I'll have to get you the name.  It's in

my case.  Very thorough.  Do you teach any bass clarinet?  The Strauss

"Death and Transfiguration."  The reading in that is crazy.  You have

to read up an octave in spots; you don't read normally.  What I do

with bass clarinet students is make sure they know the bass clef.  For

that I use, again, the Boner.  It's published for bass clef.  They

read that--it's tremendous and it becomes second nature to them

reading bass clef.  Also, if they are unfamiliar with bass clef, they

have to call out the names of the notes, especially if they have not

had piano.  Just like a beginner would.  Then before you know it they

catch on to it; they do well.  But bass clef is very important for

bass clarinetists.  If not, then you can only play bass clarinet in

the band.  Then everything is treble clef.  And there are so many

different systems.  The bass clef is a very confusing thing for bass




                                                                    10

clarinet--whether they go up in octaves or just seconds transposing

from the original.  Then we go with the A clarinet--bass clarinet--

there isn't any trouble--bass clef and for A bass clef.  Did you ever

see an A bass clarinet?


J. G.:  No--an A bass clarinet?


S. F.: Yes, a bass clarinet in the key of A.  There must be just a few

around and they are always out of tune.  I think they were made for

European pitch, and it is so much higher than ours.  It's pathetic how

they are out of tune.  I see down here you have Stein's "The Art of

Clarinet Playing"--excellent, but along with that I think is the

Thurston Clarinet Technique, which is a part of a series, oboe

technique and so forth, published by Oxford University Press.  You get

a lot out of that.  It goes along with the Stein book.  We miss Keith

Stein.  A marvelous gentleman.  And also I like the "Art of

Clarinetistry," you remember that book, by William Stubbins.  Very

technically and mechanically oriented.  A very cranial writer, but

very, very good.  A very cranial writer--lots of brains--very, very

interesting.


J. G.:  What part do you feel transposition plays in the development

of the young clarinetist?  Whole steps, half steps, up and down.


S. F.:  What do you mean by young clarinetist?


J. G.:  Well, the developing clarinetist!


S. F.:  It depends there again.  If it's a very good clarinetist, in

high school or junior high, I give it to him just for the purpose




                                                                    11

of getting accustomed to it, the training, and as I said before, the

concentration.  Certainly in college it is very important.  As I

mentioned before, they should be able to transpose in the key of C

more importantly than in the key of A, I think.  It's a much more

practical thing.  I encourage them to play duets, play with flutists,

and with violinists, and to transpose their part.  And there's a certain

way of teaching transposition that we go by, and making sure we do it.

You have to call out the notes in the transposed key.  They find that,

generally, quite difficult at first.  Here again, I say if you can't

say it, you can't play it!  If you can't read out the notes, if your

brain doesn't transmit the names of the notes, how are you going to

play it?  There again, no rhythm, just calling out the names of the

notes, going into transposition, doing it with others at those points.

Playing with the piano.  Take some slower or more simple Bach things

or Handel things, sonatas, and play with the piano.  Transpose the

original violin part or C part.  As you know, nowadays, trumpet

players are using C trumpets; it's the style now to play C trumpet and

they transpose everything.  Did you know that?  Ask a trumpet player.

Because now they go for the more brilliant sound.  I can't imagine

that ever happening to the clarinet.  It would be like using C clarinets

to play Bb parts.  But that's what the trumpets are doing.  Because

that C clarinet is so miserably out of tune and the quality is so

radically different from the Bb clarinet.  But I think that it is a

very important fact of training, and I think the sooner the better.


J. G.:  Do you encourage the memorization of opera and orchestral

excerpts?




                                                                    12

S. F.:  By all means.  No hesitation there.  By all means.  Many times

I have taken an audition and the conductor would say, "Play the

Hungrarian Rhapsody".  The Hungrarian Rhapsody?  "Sure, play it.  Play

the three cadenzas.  Play the Sheherazade or play...let me hear, (this

is the conductor) the solos from the Pathetique Symphony."  Just like

a violinist or a cellist does concertos, we are not required to know

that, but I should think that we be required to know orchestral

excerpts.  Beethoven 6, Tchaikovsky 4, Sheherazade, Coc D'or, Strauss!


J. G.:  How do you teach attacks?


S. F.:  Hit 'em!  I hate that word "attacks"--a bad word.  I wish we

could find another word for the start of the tone.  Because the word

"attack" connotes, "Sock it to 'em.  Hit 'em in the face, bash him!"

That's beside the point, but I think the word "attack" is a terrible

word.  Don't you think so?  I was just thinking as in the Pathetique

Symphony (sings slow solo) if you attack, that's going to be the

effect (slaps first note).  So how do you teach attack?  First of all,

I tell them that "attack" is a terrible word.  Well, mechanically,

you take a breath, and you have the embouchure set, the tongue against

the reed, before your note comes out, and when you release the tongue

from the reed, the note comes out.  That's essentially the beginning

of the tone with the backup of the air behind you, very similar to

what happens when you walk over to the sink and turn the spicket.  Of

course the water comes out, because there is pressure behind the

faucet.  So its's that idea, that the tongue is going away from the

reed.  At the start, the air not going to the reed to make the tone

come out.  The tone air is released by removal of the tongue from the




                                                                    13

reed to begin the tone.  And the rapid articulation is the tongue

going away from the reed.  I will tell the student to pronounce it, to

actually articulate it away from the clarinet: "Ta," "Ta," "Ta"--and

get the feel of what the tongue is doing.  Occasionally, I might do

anchor tonguing, because we all have different sized tongues and

different noses, ears, and lips.  The tongue sometimes is long and the

mouth can't accomodate its length, so then the tongue just rests

behind the lower teeth just the same, moving away (to pronounce Ta).

Occasionally one has to do this.  I've had students who have fooled me

and done everything--"ka, ka, ka" in the back of the tongue, and I've

tried to retrain them-- and have had some success, because I think you

have more control with "ta."  One student I remember specifically, you

would think that this student could triple tongue, "ta-ka-ka" or

"ta-ta-ka," but he couldn't do that.  It was either one or the other.

Frequently even walking down the street or driving a car, you can

practice tonguing, observing the mechanical or physical part of it.

Does that tell you enough?  In fact, I didn't go into too much detail

but definitely it's "away."  And you start very, very slowly.  I've

evolved a system very similar to the Bonade method of going away from

the reed and returning to the tip of the reed.  I believe I gave you a

whole series of those?  I've had some very good results from those,

and some very good remarks.  Recently I had one student who came from

an ex-student of mine and that ex-student said that he "had never seen

any better staccato studies than the Forrest."  It does work, I know,

and specifically with metronome, because you have a mechanical thing

going on all the time.  And the first thing, I don't speed at all--I

stress quality.  That's the important thing.  Because sometimes you




                                                                    14

get ridiculous things like the Willam Tell Overture in the band

version, like when I was in the Marine Band.  When it gets terribly

fast, you do two slurred and two tongued.  You should be good at that

and play that in scale studies, chromatic studies and things like

that.  Really be able to do that very well--two slurred, two tongued.

Double tonguing is not impossible, but it takes so much time away from

other studies that I don't think it's worth it, unless of course one

has a particular propensity--a genius--for staccato that way.

Gallodoro could do that--"Ta ka Ta ka."  But on the clarinet you can

just about ruin your tone and waste all the time you could be spending

learning literature, musicianship and other techniques that are

necessary.  So I don't think it is worth it at all.  But above all,

quality first and then speed.  Speed will come with a lot of

perseverance.  You have to have perseverance in everything when it

comes to learning a skill; certainly with the clarinet, it requires a

skill.  For some people tonguing is slow; others take the tonguing

very naturally--but very few, I must say.  Tonguing is a very

difficult art and more often than not, I think it's a skill that one

is born with, to a great extent.  Then there is the quality of the

tongue--one could have a fast tonguing but with poor quality.  One

kind of thing I don't like is (says hard staccato) their pronouncing

"TUTH...tuth, tuth, tuth"--coming back too hard on the reed.  I don't

hear as much of that as I used to hear, but an awful lot of that used

to go on.  I think that the shut off of the reed should be quiet.

"Ta, ta, ta."  When you say it with "tuth, tuth, tuth," that's the

reason that it slows up the tongue.  All that is discussed when I do

that with pupils and hand out about seven or eight pages of staccato




                                                                    15

studies that I devised myself, which I hope to publish someday for my

own method...who knows?


J. G.:  How you you employ the tape recorder in your teaching?


S. F.:  I do encourage my students to tape themselves when they

practice, if they can.  But specifically in recitals.  When the

student does recitals, tape them and let them hear the cassettes and

let them hear themselves.  I give them the cassette to take home for

their leisure.  I think it's a very instructive, sometimes destructive,

thing to hear happen.  Shakes them up, wakes them up.  I think with

the use of the marvelous tape recorders we get nowadays, I think we

should be getting into a super race of clarinetists in the next

generation, and possibly this generation too.  The devices that exist--

you can xerox things.  When I was coming along, for instance, all the

orchestra studies--I think you know about this--volumes that I hand

copied, I think must be all published by now, but I used to do every

one of them by hand.  I was in school then and spent hours and hours

going up to the library.  Still some of those that I have are not

published due to the copyright rules and so forth.  But in those days,

I spent hours and hours making copies of excerpts.  Which nowadays I

hand out to students xeroxing them gratis.  I mean after I have copied

for hours, and there in one split second, it's kind of maddening.  I

think that the current generation has an advantage.  And years from

now with the computer and everything else going on!  There is a whole

revolution in learning, and I'm sure it will extend to clarinetist,

clarinetistry and music in general.  Does that answer your question?

==============
End Section 1 of 3
Continued in file Clarinetists.2